Last week, as part of the celebration for International Women’s Day (March 8), a statue of a defiant girl staring down the Wall Street bull appeared. Count me among those who love the statue and hope it will stay. It is no secret that women are under-represented in many fields, including the AP world, as I discussed in an earlier post. Some APs have floated the idea that if the casino’s old-boy network underestimates the skills of women, women might actually have a strategic advantage relative to their fellow male APs. These ringer women will get away with murder, and will make huge profits before they are even suspected. Well, that’s the theory at least, but are women the Dutch Book?
The Dutch Book is an economist’s justification for why certain market inefficiencies cannot exist. In the classic example, suppose a guy prefers A to B, and B to C, and C to A. Such preferences would create trouble for some mathematical models designed to predict human behavior, so economists rule out such preferences by saying that if such a guy existed temporarily, he would be eliminated from the market by some AP who would run a Dutch Book on the guy. The AP says, “Hey, since you prefer B to C, I’ll give you one B, and you give me one C plus a dollar.” (The AP has to use precisely those words.) Then the AP says, “Hey, since you prefer A to B, give me that B—plus a dollar—and I’ll give you one A.” After that transaction, the AP says, “Give me a dollar with that A, and I’ll give you one C.” The sucker is back where he started with one C, but the AP is three dollars richer, and we lather, rinse, and repeat until the sucker is broke. (This particular “AP” happens to be a poker player, by the way.)
I am using the term Dutch Book more liberally here, to say what should happen if your opponent uses any racist, sexist, or misguided strategy that is not skill-based. If opposing baseball teams are racist, and refuse to put skilled black players on the field, then an enlightened team will pick up Jackie Robinson (on the cheap!) and make the racists pay. All professional American teams now consider players of all races.
So, are female APs the Dutch Book against casinos? Casinos are sexist, and racist! No, I do not have hard numbers to back up that claim, but since a ridiculous percentage of casino bosses are white males, and the job itself takes no skill, I doubt anyone who has spent time in casinos will quibble with my inference.
The short answer is no, female players do not have an advantage. In fact, the opposite is true. A woman who is equally skilled as a man will make less money as an AP. Most of the male bosses will indeed think that the woman is not skilled, but that’s the assumption the bosses have of every person in the casino that they don’t know. Until they have reason to think otherwise, the bosses consider every customer to be a loser, a mark. They do not have a customer-service mentality, they have a hustler/carny mentality: how can we get all of this loser’s money?
So the female is not so far ahead of the game here. Making money as an AP, especially over the long term, is about game management and exposure management. Exposure is everything. And that’s where the female AP gets killed. The girl gets noticed. Male bosses notice her. Female bosses notice her, too! (A study showed that when an attractive woman is depicted on a billboard along with males, male viewers looked at the woman first, and female viewers also looked at the woman first!)
When I was a degenerate kid betting red chips, bosses didn’t notice me. Now that I’m an old guy betting red chips, bosses don’t notice me. The floormen don’t ogle me. They don’t stand around the table chatting me up. Surveillance doesn’t zoom in on my boobs (no, I am not Brian Zembic). Bosses don’t ask for my number. They don’t try to comp me or sign me up for a player’s card. They don’t ask what I do for a living. They don’t dream about me being a stripper. Other players don’t chat me up or try to become my gambling buddy. They don’t ask me to kiss the cut card. They don’t stroke my arm with the cut card (creepy!). In short, they don’t care. Apathy is our friend!
Obviously a female AP can try to dress down, but she’ll still be noticed more than a male. For the purposes of this discussion, anyone over 45 years old is considered genderless, and any Asian is considered genderless (race trumps gender). On top of gaining exposure quickly, the female has the problem that if she is made as an AP, she’ll be remembered more than the male. Again, the numbers game is partly to blame there. There are so few female APs that they all stand out and are remembered and talked about disproportionately in this mostly male industry. The personnel at Planet Hollywood were positively giddy after they caught one well-known female AP.
The female AP even brings more exposure onto her teammates. In many instances when I played with a woman, conversations about us ensued long after the woman had departed. In one case, a dealer at Bal-ly’s asked me about a girl I had played with years earlier. This dealer likely would not have noticed or remembered me if not for the girl.
If a female wants to bet the money (sometimes APs are in a situation where using a partner BP is not feasible), she has the problem that a (young) white female betting black gets noticed. It’s just not that common. With so much pressure on the few women in the game, the industry is not inviting to women considering going into it. I would stop short of calling it a vicious cycle, though, since a paucity of women as APs in casinos is hardly a societal problem. A much higher priority would be boosting the number of women in Congress.
Many times in my career, I’ve heard a teammate or a poster on a gambling Website say, “We should get a girl …” One teammate of mine even shoe-horns his young girlfriend into the role of a BP, a role for which she is entirely unsuitable. Invariably there is nothing whatsoever about the target game that would be more vulnerable to a co-ed attack. APs are capable of all manner of rationalizations. All nerdy APs want to live the fantasy of the Hollywood version of card counting: we’ll be high rollers comped to gourmet meals and lavish suites, strolling up to the tables with hottie teammates on our arms. But that has nothing to do with the game. That’s just a general male fantasy that has nothing to do with being an AP. Nice fantasy, though.
(It would be great if any female readers could comment on their experience whacking casinos.)
“For the purposes of this discussion, anyone over 45 years old is considered genderless, and any Asian is considered genderless (race trumps gender).”
Any views on asian females on whether they can get away with more $ than asian males. Especially vietnamese/chinese females are reknown for getting big action down. I also thought Munchkin said being a female was worth much more money as a big player awhile ago on a GWE podcast.
And following up, who would be the “best” AP partner for you to work with if you could regarding race and gender.
Kevin, I don’t know if the majority of the people who read this board regularly think Ivey had a “baccarat cheating scam.” I think most would say it was a clever way to have greedy casinos make agreements on certain playing parameters that allowed him and his asian female counterpart “gamble with and edge” so to speak.
I wonder by your own words if the real point you are trying to make has more to do with pulchritude than gender.
Overall, you assume that all female AP’s, and those aspiring to be so, are young and attractive by societal standards. Then you seem to switch gears a bit by saying that a woman could dress down but she would still get unwanted attention. Though you don’t explain why, it doesn’t matter because you again imply that the dressed-down woman is attractive to begin with. So let me be blunt: what about ugly (by societal standards) female AP’s? Could they be more successful than attractive ones; or even attractive male AP’s for that matter?
A lot of women in the casino get noticed by the bosses because most male minds are hardwired for sex. There is no denying that. The bosses get Ocular Gravity Force (OGF), they want to stare and check out her body such as booty and bust size. Even the eye in the sky stares. It seems that a lot of female species of birds are dull and drab in color while a lot male birds are colorful and have to put on some song & dance to attract a mate. As it pertains to humans, possibly the not so pretty and over weight birds who are intelligent wouldn’t get noticed that much. Kinda like lowering the standards on good looks in order to raise the overall average. Or if several women are on a team, it would probably be wise to use the foxiest one and to place her on a non-target game as a decoy to fool the guys who’s minds are hardwired for sex.
Well, my comment about that got deleted, so I can only conclude that not only do most people on this board disagree with the courts re whether Ivey was cheating or not, they consider it gol-durn BLASPHEMOUS to suggest that he was.
Regardless of that, the point I was making was that Ivey’s scam, er, fantastically clever gaming strategy was probably greatly facilitated by bringing along a sexy Suzy Wong. I doubt that say, a 350-pound white guy could have batted his eyelashes at a dealer and gotten him to violate procedure.
Here’s why your comment got deleted: Your diatribe, consistent with most of your previous comments, had so many nonsensical, erroneous statements that I was left with three options: (1) Not respond, and allow inaccurate, misleading, and sometimes libelous information to remain uncontested on my blog, (2) spend an inordinate amount of time refuting your comment point-by-point, (3) delete the comment.
I’ll make a few quick points in reply to this comment, but might end up having to delete this one, too.
(1) Your previous comment, and this one, too, suggest that Ivey was cheating, when the latest written ruling by a New Jersey judge specifically said that Ivey was not cheating, so I’m not going to let you libelously misstate facts just because you like to imagine that YOU, not a judge, make the rules. You’re the typical ex-dealer who describes every play that you don’t like (or had no skill at) as a scam. Let me guess: in your world-view, hole-carding is a scam, too, right?
(2) You make speculative comments about stuff you know NOTHING about. We’ve been over this before. Your previous comment even had wording such as “I would think that …” I don’t speculate about how I THINK this stuff works. I live it, every day, and my current viewpoints are based on this experience, not how I presumed the industry was before I started. How many hours have you spent just in the past week whacking table games? Do you think it’s anywhere close to my hours in the past week? (Hint: my hours is about 40 in the past three days.) So when I say, from my own massive experience working with dozens of teammates, male and female, over the past two decades of heavy play, that exposure trumps the boss’s underestimation of a woman’s skills (excepting some subcategories based on race which we’ll discuss later), it’s silly when you just ignore my entire post (can you read?) and repeat the same, tired, trivial speculation that a woman can flash her boobs and outlast a forgettable, invisible male. In a play last year, several girl teammates who played only a couple weeks are still being talked about by casino folk to this day, while a forgettable guy that no one talked to (but who won EVERY one of a few dozen sessions he played over a span of months) is never even MENTIONED.
(3) No, Ivey’s partner was not “eye candy.” Once again, you have some fantasy about how you THINK things went down, when in fact you have no information.
(4) If I had said that women can outlast men, you’d have said that exposure will kill them. If I say exposure will kill them, you’ll say women can flash their boobs and outlast men. It’s quite clear that you will ALWAYS take the opposite side of any post I make, and that you are not actually here to enjoy the discussion and learn from the viewpoints I am sharing based on my own experience. I really don’t get what drives guys like you. I always figure that no one is that stupid to make some of your statements, especially without experience or data to back it up, so I can only infer that you’ve got some other agenda and a lot of time on your hands.
In the future, I’m going to attempt a consistent personal policy in dealing with you: if I don’t have the time to rebut every one of your misstatements, then I’ll just delete your comment. I’m not going to allow uncontested crap to remain on my blog, especially because I have the same goal as LVA–to provide the highest quality, scientifically based (i.e., not speculation) gambling information possible, in areas where I have professional expertise to share.
If a woman is considering entering AP as a career, she probably is in the 21-35 age range, and probably has not had children yet (AP involves too much travel). So, yes, this may be a subgroup that is of above-average physical attractiveness. But the people who make the case for women lasting a long time (like Kevin Lewis) tend to also speak of attractive women who can flirt with bosses to distract them, and “flash their boobs” (Kevin’s words), but my point is that that exposure will doom them. Also, many of the women, in my experience most of them, are in the AP world because boyfriends/husbands brought them in. The guys tend to bring in attractive women that they just want to spend time with for personal reasons (I myself am absolutely guilty of this!), but many of those guys then rationalize the move by saying that a woman would be great for the play, or a woman can get away with murder, blah blah. I am very comfortable admitting that I want to bring in a woman because this is a lot of hours of my life that I’d rather spend with a person I’m attracted to, but I think that I am much better putting those women in team roles that are not counterproductive to the play, and have some value added to the play.
So, the answer to your question is twofold: (1) We usually ARE evaluating a woman who is more attractive than average, and (2) Even an unattractive girl will get more exposure. It does not look normal for a white girl, even an unattractive one, in her twenties to be betting $1000 a hand, but a guy of the same age can, especially if he has headphones around his neck and starts talking about point spreads and the money line. Girls are going to stand out, especially one who is around for multiple hits on the same target.
Let’s take another example: I used to participate frequently in the Green Chip chat sessions on Stanford Wong’s bj21 Website. I would usually pick a different handle each week. No one knows what I look like, because it’s just a text chat, right? So this has nothing to do with being attractive or unattractive, but I got MASSIVELY more attention when I logged in using a female handle like “Stephanie417.” Every one in there, including Stanford himself, would chat me up, and Private Chat me. It was hilarious. You could argue that the attention was because they imagined that I could be an attractive female, but that if I were confirmed ugly, they would ignore me, but I just don’t see that in the table-games pit. Even an average girl or unattractive girl is probably more appealing to talk to by the male personnel than a guy, and more memorable. But you do have a point that in terms of exposure, being an unattractive girl is better than being an attractive one.
A caveat: poker is a whole nuther ballgame. In poker, I’d rather be a woman, so as to get the most benefit from being underestimated, the most value from white knights, the least chance of the game breaking at 1 a.m., and no cost to exposure.
That’s a great comment, and so I’m actually going to make it the topic of my next blog post. Thank you for contributing!
I prefer to work with a male that blends in and preferably isn’t the flamboyant, talkative type. Somebody putting on a big act might become memorable as well.
This is a really good thread. I worked in Vegas last summer and hole carded up a storm , thus bumping into some rookies trying to up their BR. So one of them was this young couple, guy and a girl and they were inseparable, sharing a lot of table time. Girl was very attractive. Made a ton of strategy errors , was quiet, only drank when boyfriend drank. They both played the part of a loser (like Worm) to perfection. They did bet pretty small, and I guess that’s a big variable in whether you will be remembered. Walk away with purple chips time and time again, and you will eventually be greeted upon return. But my play with them I was always the table captain, and I’m flamboyant, and from my sober observations they never zoned in on the girl. I think if you are reserved and lay in the cut and “go south” and keep your game tight you are at equal risk with any race/gender hot/ugly to get heated up. I’ve met a few women AP’s, and most are hot. But remember most hot girls have trade craft on brushing ppl off or making conversation unwelcome. table comportment has huge value, and I think most chics have a naturally good one. But yeah when you got purple/black stack and a nice rack you are the brightest bulb at the table. Just out of curiosity is the woman who got hemmed up at PH ‘Mary’?
It appears that the “Fearless Girl” statue has been getting a lot of attention lately. https://www.infowars.com/4chan-trolls-strike-again-sabotage-feminist-fearless-girl-statue-in-nyc/
Wow, very thorough answer. Thank you.
You vehemently disagreed when another judge said Ivey WAS cheating, so please don’t be disingenuous by saying “The courth hath spthoken!” when a ruling in his favor is handed down. It’s obvious that case law to deal with situations like this hasn’t developed, so ANY ruling or casual opinion is going to be subjective.
And to answer your question, yes, I think hole carding is indeed cheating. Just like Ivey-style baccarat, it relies on deception and violates the spirit of the game. When casinos do things like that, you APs explode and spatter all over the room.
I already know that my moral compass in the casino is aligned differently than that of most APs. Doubtless, I would have made more money over the years if I had had more of a take-no-prisoners attitude. I am sure that many APs feel that ethics is a luxury they cannot afford. At least, that’s what many of them have told me.
So you AGREE with a New Jersey judge that that Ivey and company cheated but DISAGREE with a Nevada judge that says hole carding is legal? Quite hypocritical, don’t you think?
I kind of disagree with the female “dooming” the team because of remembrance. Similar to the blackjack playing style of SmallCapGrowth (everyone do yourself a favor and listen to his GWAE shows) your exposure doesn’t matter as much at lower tolerance shops (and I’ve always said HEAT is the number one playing condition in my opinion)… or as I’ve found in my experience, shops where they know you well as more high rollers/etc. I have a female on my team that was able to table max carnival games for about 1.5 years at the same shop, pretty much whenever we wanted to go. Not only did we put in ~120 hours per month, with regular full time jobs, we did this for 1.5 years without ever getting anything more than some heat on 2-3 occasions. In the end, they ended up fixing the games, not us. They didn’t touch our comp dollars, etc, so I’ve still got to believe they never fully made us. Point being, I think she was a tremendous help to have at the table. This shop definitely gave the vibe of “well women can’t be pro’s, so she must just be a high rolling gambler!” To boot, she played rated the entire 1.5 years and the amount of comps that came as a result are just the cherry on top of our very large win at this shop. Without her, I 100% believe we would have received much more heat than we did, as nearly all of the bosses loved her and always flirted with her.
I do agree with some of the drawbacks you’ve mentioned, but overall from my experience I absolutely believe having a female on the team is a plus EV move.
So, I am a female AP.
I am neither in the young-hot group, or in the +45 genderless group.
My BFs and now husband do not play.
Several thoughts. First, the casino does not fear you as a woman. I have been at a table with a partner and seen my partner given the tap, while I had more money on the table. I was once “whale drafting” in a sense, as I sat at a table where a clumsy counter joined. This poor guy got the tap, and I was able to play unnoticed. ***Note, I DID NOT leave the table because his play was great cover for me, and I was there first. See below.
Other APs or counters automatically assume I’m not a threat. On another forum, one poster spouted a fantasy about bumping into a “young sexy counter” and leaving her table. I have had the misfortune of having this VERY COUNTER jump into my table, and never take a second glance. I’m the one who always has to move, because the average male counter would never dream that the woman at his table is also counting.
When I first started, I hated people commenting on my play. “Honey, you don’t want to hit that! He has a BUST card!” Your play does get scrutinized more by the male ploppy world. So I avoid third base, not because I care what anyone thinks, I’d just rather not have the attention at all as a counter.
My gender is my best cover. The few people who know I’m a woman are careful to not to out me. I’m on two forums, with a genderless name, and those in the know keep my secret. I have also met a handful of women APs and counters. With the exception of one woman who was a mess, they have all be competent, skilled, and generally nice people.
Still wondering who is at the top of
JG’s BP lineup!! Recently pondering if pit and shift managers will ignore win ceiling thresholds with certain race and gender profiles ranging from old Asian male/female to African American /minority male/female. Recently saw an Asian grandma BP and was envious of the team that got granny to get the casino ca$h. Good variance to all!
It’s sure hard not being a stranger when you’re so hard to find! 😉
I’m two years late on this thread, but I wanna jump in and just say:
1) Hole Carding is not cheating… anymore than wearing a low cut sweater (on a woman) is cheating… Cleavage has its merits and they both totally satisfy the necessary entertainment aspect of casino gaming… Lets not ruin good things 😀
2) I am not familiar with the Ivey case… However I know this to be a fact: In a court of law, its not what we know or what think we know; it’s what we can prove… Just saying… Seeing a hot girl in a low cut sweater does not make her a a promiscuous, exploitable idiot… but dealers and bosses taking her money based on such a foul presumption does make them sort of evil.
That is all…. lol