On September 15, I received an email from a host at the Silverton stating that two weeks later, September 29, there was going to be a Diamond Appreciation Party by the pool starting at 5:30. Light hors d’oeuvres, cocktails, and 12x points from 5 p.m. – midnight for those who checked into the party.
For those who aren’t familiar with the Silverton’s slot club, the base club returns 0.30% and the loosest game is 8/5 Bonus which is a 99.2% game. Adding 3.6% (i.e. 12x points) in free play is very juicy. In the past year or so, they have regularly had big point multipliers for slots and have had 2x points for video poker once. Never more than that. Even though they rarely offer point multipliers for video poker, a number of machines in the High Limit room have small stickers on them that say point multipliers aren’t valid there.
But this invitation didn’t say 12x points for “reels only.” It didn’t say anything like “limited to xxx points.” It didn’t say “check at the club for complete details.” It didn’t say “management reserves all rights.” It said 12x points from 5 p.m. to midnight if you check into the party. My guess is that the hosts made up the invitation and aren’t used to dotting all of the i’s and crossing all the t’s.
So, was this worth a play?
I decided to test the waters first. On several occasions I went to the slot club and asked if there were rules published for the party. If so, surely the rules would list the disclaimers. But there were no rules published.
I made it a point to not talk to any host in the two weeks prior to the party. If they told me “reels only,” that would kill the play before it began.
I figured I could play about $200,000 coin-in. My expected loss at 8/5 Bonus was (round numbers) $1,700 offset by $600 in free play if I only got single points. But if I got 12x points, I’d receive an extra $6,600 — making me a $5,500 favorite for 6.5 hours play — assuming I started at 5:30. (There was a final drawing at the South Point that night where your EV if called was $4,250, but it was not guaranteed I’d be called — neither Bonnie nor I were called the first four weeks — so I didn’t even play for that drawing that week.)
I decided to go for it. I had no other plays that night worth $5,500 in EV.
The two best eligible machines were $1 Spin Poker ($45 per play) and $10 single line. I could get more coin-in on the $10 machine, but it would also attract more attention as every four of a kind and higher generated a W2G. I figured to get 10-15 hand-pays — which would definitely get their notice. I’m a well-known player and me hammering that machine for so long would be very atypical. It’s possible they would ask me why I was playing — and I didn’t want to have that conversation. The Spin Poker machines (actually All Star Poker machines where Spin Poker is my game of choice) are frequently busy and my presence there would probably not cause any undue attention.
I also wanted to be first in line for the 5:30 party. If they opened the doors at 5:00, that would give me an extra half hour of play worth another $500 or so to me. They didn’t do that. I also wanted to see if there were any signs up at the check-in saying anything about reels only or some kind of limit. There weren’t.
Bonnie and I were both invited — and we both got to bring a guest. We invited a married couple — who understood that I would probably be playing and not staying for the party. So I got the machine I wanted, created some $1,000 “tickets,” and had Bonnie hold the machine while I took the husband and went to check into the party. He stayed and I went to release the girls — and started to play.
There were some other players who also decided this promotion was too good to pass up and decided to play on the same bank of machines. I don’t know how many players were playing elsewhere in the casino for the promotion. I know at least two well-known players chose to play the Hundred Play machines even though they had a “no multipliers” sticker. I’m guessing most video poker players ASSUMED the casino meant slots only and didn’t realize that some key words were missing.
I ran salty. Playing $200,000, I lost $8,900. Even if I collected the full $7,200 for the 12x points, I’d still be down $1,700. The other players playing Spin Poker more than made up for my shortfall— if they got the points. Oh well. Being on the positive side of variance would have been more fun but anything can happen in the short run. I’d love to find another situation like this someday. My negative result this time wouldn’t slow me down in the least at trying it next time.
At the kiosk, there is a screen which shows the date and time and how many points you’ve played today. I took a picture at 5:30 p.m. and another at 11:58 p.m. — so if it came to a dispute of how much I played when, I’d have the backup. If it ever came to going to the Nevada Gaming Control Board, I wanted to have this evidence. I didn’t think there would be a dispute about “how much and when,” nor did I think it would get to the NGCB in the first place, but you never know. Better to have the evidence and not need it than risk not having it when it could end up being necessary.
Now came the tricky part. Collecting the extra $6,600 in free play. I was pretty sure it wasn’t going to be given to me automatically. I’d have to talk the casino into it. The other players playing Spin Poker were willing to let me have the first shot at collecting the extra points mainly because I’m more experienced at successfully negotiating with casinos. I told them I’d keep them posted.
On other promotions at the Silverton, they sometimes say they need up to 72 hours to put the extra points on the card. Okay. On Sunday evening I went to the slot club booth and asked to speak to the manager. Alicia (possibly not the way she spells her name — I didn’t see her badge) told me the 12x points were for reels only and there was a limit of 60,000 points. I told her that there was nothing published that said anything like that and I asked whether she would like to see the invitation?
Neither agreeing nor disagreeing with my position, she told me adding 2.2 million points to my card was not something she was authorized to do and said she’d email the marketing manager, Diane, who would reach out to me Monday. On Tuesday Diane and I spoke and she told me the decision needed to be made by her boss, Sheila, who wouldn’t be in until Wednesday.
The fact that I lost $8,900 on the play before slot club benefits was, in my opinion, an irrelevant factor insofar as whether or not I should get the extra 2,200,000 points. But I figured it might make a difference to the decision-makers. After all, even if they paid me, they still made money (on me anyway. Not so much on the others.) So I mentioned it. If I had a winning score, I would have kept quiet about it.
There were a number of additional phone calls and some emails, but eventually Sheila called me Friday and told me I would be given all of the points — but it possibly wouldn’t happen before Monday. No problem. Sheila would not discuss the other players with me, and said they’d have to contact her if they wanted their situation to be considered. Okay. I passed that message along.
Overall, I feel the Silverton handled this honorably. They didn’t mean to offer the 12x points to video poker players — but apparently they reread the invitations and decided they should do the right thing. Hat’s off to the Silverton. (If you think casinos always act this way Google “Phil Ivey Borgata”.)
A strange “coincidence” happened after the Diamond Appreciation Party and before it was resolved. The 5¢, 10¢, and 25¢ Hundred Play machines in the High Limit room were downgraded from 8-5 Bonus to 7-5 Bonus. These were by far the most popular machines in the casino — coin-in-wise. (Not so much after the downgrade.)
These machines weren’t eligible for this promotion because they had a “multipliers not valid here” sticker on them, so I didn’t play them. I would have MUCH preferred to play machines where I could “invest” $125 per play than $45 per play so long as I had a 2.8% advantage. I could have still lost of course, but it would have been much less likely and my EV would have been something like $12,000 rather than a mere $5,500.
As mentioned before, some well-known players chose to ignore the stickers and play on those machines anyway and try to talk their way into the points later. They could argue the stickers were small and hard to read (very true) and the lighting in the room was very dim (also true.) Still, the stickers have been there for a year or so. Most video poker players who play enough to be Diamond know about those stickers.
The pay schedules were pulled a few days later. If the casino was burned on the Diamond Appreciation party, it seems to me to be far more sensible to post bigger stickers so there could be no misunderstanding.
Silverton is interesting; I was staying at M Resort last fall, and went to Silverton after reading they had fair VP odds on some game (I’m a $1 player). While I was there, I bought in for $300 at Blackjack and was spreading about $15-$50, and, after about a half hour, I was removed from the table, allowed to cash in my $270 in chips, and TRESPASSED! Yes, not backed-off, but actually read the trespass speech by two Security officers and escorted out to the parking garage. What a gyp joint that little place is. And I lost thirty dollars!
You guys ruin it for everybody as evidenced by the casino downgrading the Bonus Poker pay schedule. But, you got yours so I guess that’s all that matters..
A couple of observations. First I enjoy your articles. I love video poker as entertainment, not a job or profession. Many readers will disagree with the post by Anonymous Joe, but I agree with him. Over the years the pay schedules get worse and worse. Its very hard for recreational video poker players to enjoy themselves because of the decline in payoffs. This is the result of professionals like you putting a quarter of a million through a machine to get the type of payoff you want. In the long run casinos will adjust to lower pay schedules, you will be out of a job, and rest of us will reap that which you have sowed. The lose of a great game with the chance a decent return for our entertainment dollars.
Being an AP player means doing all of the research and making all of the decisions to play before actually touching the buttons. And even after touching the buttons, you still have to negotiate whether you receive valid credit for your play. It’s sort of a dance. And it’s hard work.
And most of these AP’s are quite proud of this actually. But you are right, they are killing VP basically out there. Nobody is making a living on VP anymore. Bob hit all his big hits when it was lucrative in LV. And oh by the way, he has been extremely lucky as well. He never seems to mention that in between all the boasting though.
Actually we didn’t touch the games that got downgraded. They had stickers on them so we avoided them. If they were still there, I would still play them.
And there are several dozen machines with the 8/5 pay schedule remaining. The game can be found from $1 to $10 single line === at least — and maybe lower. Plus they have 25c 50c and $1 Spin Poker. It would be hard to make an accurate case that I’ve killed the golden goose.
Insofar as me playing a lot when the opportunities present themselves, you’re right. I’m in this to make money from the machines. Usually the machines recreational players play and the machines I play are not the same.
What I do is offer step-by-step directions as to how to succeed at this game. Many readers will look closer at the rules after reading about this play. It’s still very possible to make money at the game — whatever the naysayers say. Many players appreciate this. Some don’t. That’s life.
Certainly experts like Jean Scott and Bob Dancer have changed the game for sure. My first video poker strategy chart was from Dwight and Louise Crevelt’s book “Video Poker Mania!” Boy, those, were the days!
My current strategy charts are from Bob Dancer and Liam Daily. They pioneered a trail that I was happy to follow.
But, earlier experts really slammed the world of casino gambling, probably starting with Edwin Thorpe and “Beat The Dealer.” When you walk through Strip casinos on a Saturday night today and cannot find a vacant seat at blackjack tables that pay 6 to 5, that pretty much tells you all that you need to know about casino profit mentality.
I feel it is still possible to be an advantage VP player if you live in Las Vegas and do not have a full-time job. That is probably what it takes to make the time and computer research commitments to earn money at video poker.
I should probably find out where Sy Red is buried. I’ve played so much video poker in my life that it would only seem appropriate to leave a couple of $1.00 casino tokens on his head stone.
Whenever I visit Las Vegas, I always stop at Jerry’s Nugget in North Las Vegas and play a couple rolls of quarters into their ancient 9/6 jacks or better machines. I swear I can feel Sy Red’s ghost standing behind me telling me: “Son, this is going to be big!”
I would imagine that you were not the only player who tried to get the 12x points “after the fact.” Given the multi-play machines’ popularity, several players might have played them heavily and then tried to do what you did. That could have prompted the downgrades (whether or not they gave the extra points to those players).
You made a fundamental tactical error. You didn’t explicitly ask the question that you needed the answer to: “Does the 12X promo apply to video poker?” You stated that you didn’t ask because you didn’t want to be told “no.” Clearly, then, in the very likely event that they never intended for the bonus to apply to VP, you intended to try to make your case with management, as you did. But they would have been well within their rights to tell you to go away, which would have left you stuck with your loss. Whatever +EV you thought you could garner from the play had to be balanced against the possibility that, whether you thought you were entitled to them or not, you would never get the bonus points.
Also, it’s a bit of an angle shot to perceive that there’s probably an error in the way a promo is stated, then go ahead and play, and plan on complaining later. The casino might legitimately ask why you didn’t clear up the discrepancy before playing. It’s stuff like this that makes casinos not offer decent promos in the first place–some sharpie leaping onto a flaw in a promo and trying to exploit it. I doubt that the Silverton’s purpose in offering the promo was to make Bob Dancer $5,000 richer.
Perhaps they were trying to make up for old losses.
Google “John Kane Video Poker.”
He did ask for the rules prior to playing. They didn’t have any.
Another factor that I would have taken into account in this situation is the possibility of being “no mailed” or even barred from playing at this casino. I can easily imagine management reacting by saying, “we’ll give you the pointhis this tme becase we made a mistake and you got us on a technicality, but we’d rather not have you as a customer in the future.” I would not play at the Silverton if I did not get a mailer and I’m guessing the same is true for Bob. On the other hand, what Bob got out of this one play makes up for the minimial advantage gained at the Silverton from an awful lot of monthly mailers. And, I wonder if his celebrity gave him some protection from adverse consequences that others in the same position might not enjoy.